Agenda and minutes

Public Transport Liaison Panel - Tuesday, 27th February, 2018 9.30 am

Venue: F10, Town Hall, Katharine Street, Croydon CR0 1NX. View directions

Contact: Kieran Pantry-Melsom
02087266000 x63922  Email:

No. Item



To invite all attendees to introduce themselves.


The Chair welcomed participants to the meeting and those present introduced themselves.


The panel noted this was the final agenda they would be discussing before the local election in May.


Furthermore because Ilona Kytomaa (Democratic Services Officer) no longer

clerked Public Transport Liaison Panel (PTLP) meetings, the Chair and panel

expressed their appreciation for her contributions over the years.



Apologies for absence


Apologies were received for Councillor Chris Wright, Councillor Bernadette Khan John Osborne, Ian Plowright, Yvonne Leslie (GTR).


Disclosures of interests

In accordance with the Council’s Code of Conduct and the statutory provisions of the Localism Act, Members and co-opted Members of the Council are reminded that it is a requirement to register disclosable pecuniary interests (DPIs) and gifts and hospitality to the value of which exceeds £50 or multiple gifts and/or instances of hospitality with a cumulative value of £50 or more when received from a single donor within a rolling twelve month period. In addition, Members and co-opted Members are reminded that unless their disclosable pecuniary interest is registered on the register of interests or is the subject of a pending notification to the Monitoring Officer, they are required to disclose those disclosable pecuniary interests at the meeting. This should be done by completing the Disclosure of Interest form and handing it to the Democratic Services representative at the start of the meeting. The Chair will then invite Members to make their disclosure orally at the commencement of Agenda item 3. Completed disclosure forms will be provided to the Monitoring Officer for inclusion on the Register of Members’ Interests.



There were none.


Minutes of the previous meeting pdf icon PDF 116 KB

To approve the minutes of the meeting held on 17 October 2017 as an accurate record.


The minutes of the meeting held on Tuesday 17 October 2017 were agreed as an accurate record.


Members of the panel reviewed the agenda items of the last meeting:


1)     One-day passes and methods of payment for travel


The panel noted that publicising one day tram and bus passes would be beneficial for making travel easier.


Over 1 million Oyster cards were sold last year, this number could have changed depending on the level of public awareness there was for better ways of travelling. It was also said that some bus passengers travelling through East Croydon were not aware that using the tram stop outside of the station cost the same amount. Tramlink charge £1.50 for passengers boarding trams with oyster cards.


2)     Cashless trams


Panel members noted that there was an outstanding action which was the move to cashless payment for trams. The TfL representative said he was not updated on the status of this situation. Panel members expressed that acknowledging the benefits of cashless payment for tram fares and knowing the data of usage for contactless payment on public transport was important. 


Action: TfL update on contactless payment for trams



3)     New tram time-table proposals


The new tram timetable was to be discussed later in the meeting.


4)     New Addington bus performance


The Chair stated that the letter to TfL regarding bus route 64 causing deterioration of the road for residents of Homestead Way had been drafted and was ready to be sent. 


Questions were raised about bus route 130 for New Addington. The Chair stated this was not on the agenda but would be discussed in Item 6 along with the other bus route matters.


5)     Ticket Machine Performance


To be picked up with Southern Rail later for when Yvonne Leslie would present her items.





6)     Pedestrianisation of Croydon High Street


The Chair received an email from Sean Creighton about bus route 109. As a result of the pedestrianisation of Croydon High Street, this bus no longer stopped at the Town Hall bus stop. People changing to 109 had to walk to the bus stop on Park Street instead.


A panel member stated that this was very inconvenient for passengers. Buses 60, 109 and 250 all stopped at Croydon University and Streatham. Bus route 50 was now the only route that could be boarded from Park Street.


The placement of a bus stand was suggested so that buses going south of Davis House would stop in the same location. The TfL representative stated that the provision of a bus stand here would need to be decided by the Council and would investigate the bus route 109 issue.


A review of the pedestrianisation changes to bus routes was recommended and the Panel agreed that this should be a substantive item for June’s meeting.


7)     The Mayor’s Transport Strategy (MTS)


The TfL representative notified the panel that the final version of the MTS draft had been completed and sent to the Mayor. [Post meeting note: this was published on  ...  view the full minutes text for item 4/18


Presentation on Croydon as a Dementia Friendly Borough and public transport considerations pdf icon PDF 660 KB

Presentation from Rachel Carse (Dementia Action Alliance and Social Inclusion Co-ordinator)


Rachel Carse, a member of the Dementia Action Alliance and Social

Inclusion Co-ordinator made a presentation to the panel:


It was stated thatRachel worked within the Council as well as the Dementia

Action Alliance (DAA).


People over 65 were commonly effected by this illness. Figures were given

such as the fact that 850,000 people live with dementia and two-thirds of people with dementia live in the community.


Rachel informed the panel that there were many who did not know they suffer

from dementia because they were not getting diagnosed (approximately 67%

of those living with dementia were formally diagnosed, April 2017). These

people used public transport regularly which could lead to major accidents.

This was because dementia interfered with one’s visual perception. Examples of people mistaking pictures of objects being real (e.g. black mats appearing as a hole in the ground were made to give a better understanding). The panel noted that this was quite significant because the development of transport systems had a great impact on people’s surroundings.   


The aim of the DAA was to encourage widespread dementia awareness and

ensure the borough was dementia friendly. Rachel expressed that they are:


·           Offering training and awareness courses for Council members and Senior

staff as well as Croydon’s Councils access, contact and call centres


·           Engaging with stakeholders by speaking with them about their experiences and understanding their views


·           Interested in way out signs being provided (do not cost much)


Contact details were provided with the presentation which was added to the

agenda for public access after the meeting ended. It was stated that

individuals and organisations could join the Dementia Action Alliance. The

group planned to launch in May 2018 and formal registration was arranged to

take place in September 2018.


The panel NOTED the contents of this presentation and the Chair encouraged public transport operators to follow the presentation up directly with Rachel to become more dementia friendly.






Bus Issues

Verbal report from Mashud Muhammed (TfL)


a)    TfL Bus Review 2018


b)    Update on bus route matters


·         Routes 289 and 455 – impact of changes to services at Trafalgar Way and Drury Crescent

·         Route 367 - improving frequency and reliability in Shirley

·         Route 466 - overcrowding and bus stop locations at Coulsdon College/Oasis Academy Coulsdon

·         Route 166 – continuation of services to Epsom

·         Route X26 - Connectivity to Heathrow Airport


a) TfL Bus Review 2018


Muhammed Mashud (TfL) informed the panel that the review was still in the

process of being finalised.            


A member of the panel stated that buses 109, 157, 353, 367 had been reduced in frequency and no consultation was publicly announced.

The TfL representative replied, stating that it was not a legal requirement for TfL to do this but we will continue to work with the borough. He intended to enquire about these buses to find out the full details.


The panel was also informed that a shutdown schedule for the Easter period was being prioritised and closure of Cherry Orchard Road where buses cross over the tram tracks.


The proposal of a review which assesses transport improvement and shows whether public needs are being met was discussed. TfL’s representative agreed stating performance reviews needed to be continuous in order to be progressive. TfL were expanding their options of ways to mitigate the high demand for buses and educating students on different methods of travel was being implemented to further this. Previous consultations relating to buses could be found on the TfL webpage.


The Chair stated that the reallocation of resources were vital considering TfL was under financial pressure and Croydon is a rapidly growing borough, thorough consultation should be carried out.


Action: TfL update for June meeting  



b) Update on bus route matters


·         Routes 289 and 455 - Impact of changes to services at

Trafalgar Way and Drury Crescent


The panel heard that an FOI request was submitted by the Chair in October 2017 and this was chased in January for additional information. The removal of bus stops on these bus routes had resulted in many having to walk far distances to reach the nearest bus stop. The Chair had been informed by TfL that the walking distance limit for public transport stops was 400 metres. This was considered to be too far for those with mobility issues. It was not made clear by TfL what the rationale behind this limit was and the Chair had emailed TfL for a response. He stated that he would make a formal complaint if he did not hear back in the next 15 working days.


The TfL representative responded by stating the performance of bus 289 had improved by 5.4% and bus 455 by 7.5%.




The panel expressed the view that these figures needed to be converted into minutes in order for the panel to understand how frequency times had changed.


The Chair explained that TfL’s consultation highlighted the convenience of bus reliability rather than needs of the public. It was said that those with disabilities are at a disadvantage and may have to cross 6 lanes to reach where they are going. The Chair agreed with this and stated that the local councillors Community ward budget could be utilised to launch a legal challenge to TfL for not complying with the Equalities Act. If TfL did not reconsider its decision it was recommended that the bus routes  ...  view the full minutes text for item 6/18


Update on minimising noise from Thornton Heath bus garage


The panel was informed that Councillor B Khan could not attend to speak on

this item but had reported to the Chair that the noise disturbance by Thornton

Heath bus garage had worsened. A meeting was planned with the Chair,

Councillor Khan and the Director of Streets to discuss this.


Richard Simmons, a representative from Arriva London reported on the following:


·         Surprised to hear the noise had become worse because public complaints had decreased from 9 in December 2017 to 2 in February 2018.


·         Buses operate from 4.30am – to 2.30am, some buses do not go out until 7.30am.


·         Air tanks make a huge amount of noise, before departing the bus garage drivers start their vehicle and wait for them to rebuild to minimise noise.


·         Arriva is outsourcing benefits management level and are penalising for overtime dockets.


·         A Marshal is stationed on each site to prevent road blockage to reduce queues.


The Arriva London representative also stated that the general manager had written to drivers about noise disturbances and leaflets had been made available for distribution.


He had met with Cllr Khan, Cllr Canning and the Director of Streets in the past and viable points had been raised. Another meeting with the pollution control staff and the Director of Streets was proposed for a definitive conclusion on resolving the bus garage noise issue.


Action Point – To follow up on the results of this meeting and update Cllr Khan on Arriva’s efforts.


A member of the panel had said that at bus garages some drivers left their buses unattended and switched to other buses. This was inconvenient for the public as some waited to board without knowing this and missed the correct bus.


A question was also raised regarding why bus engines did not stay running for quick departure from garages. Richard responded by saying bus engines cut out after being left idle for 30 seconds. This was viewed as appropriate to minimise emissions.


Members of the panel NOTED this update.



Cllr Ryan informed the panel that actor Stephen Lewis, On the Buses’ Blakey had died.




Update on New Addington to Wimbledon tram service changes

Verbal update from Chris Hall (TfL)


Dan Stephen, a representative of Tram Operations updated the panel on the



·         London Trams will decide on any tram service changes.


·         The new schedule had started from Sunday 25 February 2018. This included the New Addington service travelling to West Croydon rather than Wimbledon.


·         There had been few delays since the new schedule started.


The TfL representative stated that the last tram service identified from Wimbledon came with only 9 passengers when it terminated.


Members of the panel NOTED this update.



Update on the upgrading of Ticket Machines pdf icon PDF 205 KB

Verbal report from Yvonne Leslie (GTR)


The panel was informed that Yvonne Leslie, a representative of Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR) could not attend to present this item.


In regards to the update it was said that Southern Rail installed a machine on Waddon railway station and was operating well. Two machines had improved since the last PTLP meeting. A ticket machine contractor had a specialist team in place to resolve any arising problems.


Action point: To monitor the performance of ticket machines at next meeting


It was also stated that the consultation of ticket machines was not complete.


Members of the panel NOTED this update.



Presentation on train Station Skipping

Presentation from Yvonne Leslie (GTR)


The GTR representative was not able to present this item due to her absence.

It was agreed that Yvonne would be briefed on these minutes and her written presentation would be circulated to panel members once Democratic Services had received it.

The Chair stated that this item may need to be included in the agenda of June’s PTLP meeting.

Members of the panel NOTED this update.The presentation has also now been circulated to panel members. 



Update on GTR performance and new timetable

Verbal report from Yvonne Leslie (GTR)


The GTR representative was not able to present this item due to her absence.

Members of the panel discussed this item and it was noted that the frequency of some train lines had changed:

·         Two trains to Peterborough and one for Cambridge were being publicised.


·         Trains to Milton Keynes departed once an hour but sometimes departed twice an hour because stops to Selhurst and Thornton Heath had been reduced since May 2017.

It was stated two services to Watford Junction or Milton Keynes would be helpful, however track space is limited because of the freight trains that are scheduled. It was stated that Croydon Council, the Mayor and the local authorities affected by these tracks would need to push Central government and Network Rail to change this.

·         Slight reduction in services from Norwood Junction to East Croydon expected for May 2018. This could be particularly inconvenient on days of Crystal Palace football matches.

The original proposal to resolve frequency disturbances during these periods was 8 trains would operate on this route and decrease to 2, however it was changed to decrease to 4 and occasionally 6. It was said an extra train to West Croydon would also be available. 

The Chair had stated that the impact of a proposal to increase capacity at Crystal Palace Stadium could be discussed more at the next PTLP meeting.

·         Network Rail construction was underway on the Tonbridge and Hastings routes. This was expected to cause problems.

Members of the panel NOTED these updates.



Update on replacement of Blackhorse Lane and Addiscombe Park bridges pdf icon PDF 161 KB

Indra Patel (Principal Engineer – Structures)


For any queries please contact the TfL customer services team on 0343 222 1234 or email via web form at 


Josh Crompton (London Trams) updated the PTLP on the following:

·         Two bridges are located at Blackhorse Lane which had been closed since 2016. They were owned by TfL and Croydon Council.


·         A joint project was underway in which a funding agreement had been signed and contract arranged to design and construct both bridges.


·         12 months from now construction was expected to be complete, reopened by early 2019.


·         A footway cycle was to be installed for the improvement of Addiscombe Park Bridge.

A member of the panel asked whether any other bridges would be assessed for improvement. Josh had replied that there was a list which was organised for the inspection of old bridges. It was stated that updates on others within Croydon would be made in the next 2-3 years.

It was proposed that more should be said about this list for the next PTLP meeting.

Action point: London Trams to disclose more information on future bridge works for June’s meeting

Members of the panel NOTED this update.


Any other business

To consider any other business at the Chair’s discretion.


The following was raised by the panel for discussion:

1)    Additional funding required for Brighton mainline upgrade, north of East Croydon station


2)    Councillor Wright could not make this meeting and was standing down as a councillor from Thursday 3May 2018.This would have been his final PTLP meeting. He achieved notable things such as:


·           Being elected as Councillor in 1990 and was a member of PTLP for 20 years.


·           Served as Chair of the PTLP under the previous administration.



·           Committed to helping people of Coulsdon and improving public transport

He was thanked for his efforts and contributions and the Chair stated he was welcome to attend future meetings as a member of the public.

3)  This was the last meeting before the local election

·           The PTLP was expected to undergo some change of membership as a result of this.


·           The Chair stated that he would hear suggestions and feedback to improve the panel after this meeting. These should be submitted to the PTLP clerk.

Councillor Canning also thanked everyone for their support for the panel as a new Chair may have been appointed by the time the PTLP June meeting took place. He was happy to have served as the Chair for the last 4 years.

The panel thanked Cllr Canning for his Chairmanship and his efforts towards improving transport services in Croydon.

The member of the East Surrey Transport Committee said that discussion between Sutton and TfL was underway regarding the Department of Transport’s plan to end paper tickets. More would be heard in conjunction with the development of Smartcards.

Members of the panel NOTED this discussion.



Items for next meeting

·        Update on the Mayor’s transport strategy


·      Update on the Mayor’s transport strategy

·      TfL Bus review - presentation and information

·      Pedestrianisation of Croydon High Street

·      Discussion of success on Hopper fares and ticketing (including Oyster add-ons

·      Train Station Skipping (in depth discussion if needed)

·      Crystal Palace Stadium: provision of public transport for fans

The panel also heard the following recommendations:

·         Review of increased express bus routes

·         Transport issues in Norbury



Dates of future meetings

·        13 June 2018

·         16 October 2018


·         16 October 2018

·         26 February 2019