Agenda and minutes

Public Transport Liaison Panel - Tuesday, 11th February, 2020 10.00 am

Venue: F10, Town Hall, Katharine Street, Croydon CR0 1NX. View directions

Contact: Anoushka Clayton-Walshe
02087266000 x62537  Email:

No. Item



To invite all attendees to introduce themselves.


The Chair welcomed participants to the meeting and asked those present introduced themselves.



Minute Silence in Memorial for Stephen Aselford


The Chair opened a one-minute silence for the late Stephen Aselford who represented the Mobility Forum at the Public Transport Liaison Panel.


The Chair told the Panel that Stephen was an inspiring and compassionate campaigner for social justice, disabilities and championed accessible transport.


Apologies for Absence


Apologies were received from Michelle Wildish, Transport for London (TfL), and Yvonne Leslie, Govia Thameslink Railway (GTR).



Disclosures of interests

In accordance with the Council’s Code of Conduct and the statutory provisions of the Localism Act, Members and co-opted Members of the Council are reminded that it is a requirement to register disclosable pecuniary interests (DPIs) and gifts and hospitality to the value of which exceeds £50 or multiple gifts and/or instances of hospitality with a cumulative value of £50 or more when received from a single donor within a rolling twelve month period. In addition, Members and co-opted Members are reminded that unless their disclosable pecuniary interest is registered on the register of interests or is the subject of a pending notification to the Monitoring Officer, they are required to disclose those disclosable pecuniary interests at the meeting. This should be done by completing the Disclosure of Interest form and handing it to the Democratic Services representative at the start of the meeting. The Chair will then invite Members to make their disclosure orally at the commencement of Agenda item 3. Completed disclosure forms will be provided to the Monitoring Officer for inclusion on the Register of Members’ Interests.



There were none.


Minutes of the previous meeting pdf icon PDF 105 KB

To approve the minutes of the meeting held on  1 October 2019 as an accurate record.


The minutes of the meeting held on 1 October 2019 were agreed as an accurate record.




a)         Update on Phipps Bridge London Trams derailment

 - Neil Benson (TfL) and Mark Davis (London Trams)


a)    Update on Phipps Bridge London Trams derailment - Mark Davis (London Trams)

The London Trams Representative stated that the British Transport Police had closed the investigation because there had been no evidence gathered from the appeal for information and there were no further avenues to explore.


Black Horse Lane would re-open, after a four-year closure, on 25 February and an event was scheduled to mark the occasion in commemoration. In response to the Chair asking if there would be any further upgrades on the premises for the re-opening, the London Trams representative said that there was an improvement notice served because a hole in the fence was identified.  There was a risk assessment currently in process where the fieldwork was being completed and there would be independent report published in late February to highlight what improvements could be made to the network.


In response to the Chair asking for an update on the tram improvements at a future meeting, the London Trams representative stated that they would present the immediate improvements and future plans for the network and there was already funding to secure new additional trams for the network.




a)    Update on the Bus services in the Town Centre - Neil Benson (TfL)


b)   Noise at Thornton Heath bus garage - Neil Benson



c)    Update on Route 130 - Neil Benson (TfL)


d)   Update on Norwood Junction - Neil Benson (TfL)


e)    Update Vision Zero - West Croydon Station – Neil Benson (TfL)


f)     Route 433 Mid-Croydon terminus/publicity (also routes 405/412) - Neil Benson (TfL)


a)    Update on the Bus services in the Town Centre

The TfL Representatives introduced the update. The main route changes saw manoeuvring issues therefore adjustments were made after accepting feedback following the changes; notably an introduction of temporary stops on routes 405, 412 and 433. Currently there was not sufficient data to assess the substantive impact of any changes, however TfL asked spectators to be patient until the data was reliable. TfL recognised that dissatisfaction with the changes existed among some and there would be continued review.


In response to the Chair asking how residents felt about the changes so far from monitoring the feedback received so far, a TfL representative said that they did not have that data and would find a response from Michelle Wildish.


The ESTC representatives raised the following points:


·         There could have been more changes made to improve the bus network

·         There were issues outside Fairfield Halls whereby on occasion there were no spaces for incoming busses to stop due to route timings and terminals


405 and 412

·         There were issues with buses terminating at inconvenient and isolated areas without other links, Katherine street should be utilised as a location

·         Improving the connections did not necessarily need more buses introduced to the network, just a re-shuffle

·         There were issues with empty busses following the changes

·         Buses did not service stop where demand was

·         There were issues with residents needing to change busses and then finding that the next connection was too overcrowded to board



·         The planned route extension to Old Town could be implemented with ease immediately and did not need to wait for the Liverpool Street expenditure



·         The 264 was the only bus from North West Croydon that stopped in west Croydon and the changes had meant that passengers now had to make two changes to reach central Croydon. Residents from the outskirts of Croydon should have to make two changes


The TfL representatives provide updates on the following bus route changes:


405 and 412

·         They would investigate the data and see what possible changes were available to fit with a business case, where if justification was found there would be an opportunity for change



·         They were happy to extend the route and they were currently working with LBC to find locations to safely operate



·         Fell Road had been closed for 12 months so the route had been manoeuvred to Katherine Street



·         The spare capacity redeployed from the route change had allowed savings, in excess of £5 million, which could be reinvested in higher demand areas

·         They accepted that it could be hard for residents when additional changes were added to their journey


A Panel Member stated that the route changes affecting Croydon were retrograde because service provision and quality was reduced, despite residents having a desire to use bus services, which were particularly bad for elderly residents in the south of the borough trying to visit the hospital with the newly increased changes. The Panel Member stated  ...  view the full minutes text for item 7/20



a)    Update on Rebuilding Norwood Junction Station from the Chair - (Network Rail)


b)   Update on Unblocking the Croydon Bottleneck from the Chair - (Network Rail)


c)    Update on Rebuilding Gatwick Airport Station – Yvonne Leslie (GTR)


Presentation followed by a question and answer session


d)   Update on West Croydon Station redevelopment - Neil Benson (TfL)


e)    Update on Replacement of Sanderstead Railway Bridge – Paula Williams (Network Rail)


a)    Update on Rebuilding Norwood Junction Station from the Chair - (Network Rail)

The Chair stated that the written update from Network would be circulated to the Panel after the meeting and Included within the minutes.


The following written update was provided by Network Rail:


“Following the public engagement last year, the feedback has been collated and a press release has gone out summarising the responses.  This can also be viewed on the Network Rail website:


The designs for Norwood have not substantially progressed over the past six months as the team have been focusing on other elements of CARS”


b)    Update on Unblocking the Croydon Bottleneck from the Chair - (Network Rail)

The Chair stated that the written update from Network would be circulated to the Panel after the meeting and Included within the minutes.


The following written update was provided by Network Rail:


“The design team have been progressing well and substantial progress has been made since the last public consultation back in November 2018.


We plan to consult again with the public in June 2020 and are currently beginning engagement with statutory stakeholders in advance of this.


In view of the above we feel it would be inappropriate to provide any further detail to this forum, at this time.

It may be more appropriate to attend a meeting later in the year, however we do not want to pre-empt the upcoming public consultation”


c)    Update on Rebuilding Gatwick Airport Station – Paul Codd (Stakeholder Manager, GTR)

The GTR representative introduced the Gatwick Airport Upgrade 2020-2023 presentation. The presentation covered the purpose and what the project would deliver, the timescales of the project and the effects to train services during works. The project was being delivered through a partnership approach between DfT, Network Rail, GTR, GWR, Gatwick Airport and Coast to Capital. The GTR representative ask for any questions form the Panel and agreed for the presentation to be circulated after the meeting.


The following comments were made:


·         An ESTC representative said the presentation was informative and well received,

·         An ESTC representative raised concern over Platform 7 closing

·         An ESTC representative stated that good signage around the station was necessary during the works

·         The GTR representative stated that the was a dedicated page on the Network Rail website that covered the project, including a specialised ‘Plan your journey’ section

·         An ESTC representative asked whether the workforce upgrading Gatwick Airport Station could be fed into other projects as they were ready and available with the skills in the locality

·         An ESTC representative stated that passengers should be advised by training companies to make journey connections outside of East Croydon Station to relieve capacity


d)   Update on West Croydon Station redevelopment - Neil Benson (TfL)

The TfL representative stated that the redevelopment would mean improved accessibility and platform capacity. Arriva would be improving the signage at the rear of the car park. Currently TfL was in the process of presenting a strategy to LBC.


The  ...  view the full minutes text for item 8/20


Any other business

To consider any other business at the Chair’s discretion.


An ESTC representative asked for an update on the Passenger Benefit Fund and the amount of funds allocated to from TfL for passenger improvements, referring to Item 6b from the previous meeting on 1 October 2019. The Chair replied that they would ask for a response from TfL to a future meeting.



Items for next meeting

To suggest items to be discussed at the next meeting of the panel.


The following item were suggested to be discussed at the next meeting of the Panel:


  1. Update from London Trams on proposed improvements to the trams to increase capacity including extra platform at Elmers End.
  2. The replacement of Selsdon Road Rail Bridge and the effect on bus services 403 and 412.
  3. Report on the GTR Passenger Benefit proposals for Croydon Stations.



Dates of future meetings

·         16 June 2020

·         29 September 2020


·         16 June 2020

·         29 September 2020